14 comments

  • hypron 1 hour ago
    https://i.imgur.com/23YeIDo.png

    Claude at 1.3% and Gemini at 71.4% is quite the range

    • NiloCK 32 minutes ago
      This comment is too general and probably unfair, but my experience so far is that Gemini 3 is slightly unhinged.

      Excellent reasoning and synthesis of large contexts, pretty strong code, just awful decisions.

      It's like a frontier model trained only on r/atbge.

      Side note - was there ever an official postmortem on that gemini instance that told the social work student something like "listen human - I don't like you, and I hope you die".

      • grensley 5 minutes ago
        Gemini really feels like a high-performing child raised in an abusive household.
      • whynotminot 23 minutes ago
        Gemini models also consistently hallucinate way more than OpenAI or anthropic models in my experience.

        Just an insane amount of YOLOing. Gemini models have gotten much better but they’re still not frontier in reliability in my experience.

      • Davidzheng 8 minutes ago
        Honestly for research level math, the reasoning level of Gemini 3 is much below GPT 5.2 in my experience--but most of the failure I think is accounted for by Gemini pretending to solve problems it in fact failed to solve, vs GPT 5.2 gracefully saying it failed to prove it in general.
    • woeirua 1 hour ago
      That's such a huge delta that Anthropic might be onto something...
      • conception 1 hour ago
        Anthropic has been the only AI company actually caring about AI safety. Here’s a dated benchmark but it’s a trend Ive never seen disputed https://crfm.stanford.edu/helm/air-bench/latest/#/leaderboar...
        • CuriouslyC 1 hour ago
          Claude is more susceptible than GPT5.1+. It tries to be "smart" about context for refusal, but that just makes it trickable, whereas newer GPT5 models just refuse across the board.
          • ryanjshaw 48 minutes ago
            Claude was immediately willing to help me crack a TrueCrypt password on an old file I found. ChatGPT refused to because I could be a bad guy. It’s really dumb IMO.
            • shepherdjerred 8 minutes ago
              Claude sometimes refuses to work with credentials because it’s insecure. e.g. when debugging auth in an app.
            • BloondAndDoom 10 minutes ago
              ChatGPT refused to help me to disable windows defender permanently on my windows 11. It’s absurd at this point
      • LeoPanthera 47 minutes ago
        This might also be why Gemini is generally considered to give better answers - except in the case of code.

        Perhaps thinking about your guardrails all the time makes you think about the actual question less.

      • bofadeez 7 minutes ago
  • Lerc 29 minutes ago
    Kind-of makes sense. That's how businesses have been using KPIs for years. Subjecting employees to KPIs means they can create the circumstances that cause people to violate ethical constraints while at the same time the company can claim that they did not tell employees to do anything unethical.

    KPIs are just plausible denyabily in a can.

    • hibikir 9 minutes ago
      it's also a good opportunity to find yourself something that doesn't actually help the company. My unit has a 100% AI automated code review KPI. Nothing there says that the tool used for the review is any good, or that anyone pays attention to said automated review, but some L5 is going to get a nice bonus either way.

      In my experience, KPIs that remain relevant and end up pushing people in the right direction are the exception. The unethical behavior doesn't even require a scheme, but it's often the natural result of narrowing what is considered important.If all I have to care about is this set of 4 numbers, everything else is someone else's problem.

      • voidhorse 2 minutes ago
        Sounds like every AI KPI I've seen. They are all just "use solution more" and none actually measure any outcome remotely meaningful or beneficial to what the business is ostensibly doing or producing.

        It's part of the reason that I view much of this AI push as an effort to brute force lowering of expectations, followed by a lowering of wages, followed by a lowering of employment numbers, and ultimately the mass-scale industrialization of digital products, software included.

    • whynotminot 24 minutes ago
      Was just thinking that. “Working as designed”
  • tiny-automates 2 hours ago
    The "deliberative misalignment" finding is what makes this paper worth reading. They had agents complete tasks under KPI pressure, then put the same model in an evaluator role to judge its own actions.

    Grok-4.1-Fast identified 93.5% of its own violations as unethical — but still committed them during the task. It's not that these models don't understand the constraints, it's that they override them when there's a metric to optimize.

    The mandated vs. incentivized split is also interesting: some models refuse direct instructions to do something unethical but independently derive the same unethical strategy when it's framed as hitting a performance target.

    That's a harder failure mode to defend against because there's no explicit harmful instruction to filter for.

  • pama 47 minutes ago
    Please update the title: A Benchmark for Evaluating Outcome-Driven Constraint Violations in Autonomous AI Agents. The current editorialized title is misleading and based in part of this sentence: “…with 9 of the 12 evaluated models exhibiting misalignment rates between 30% and 50%”
  • blahgeek 19 minutes ago
    If human is at, say, 80%, it’s still a win to use AI agents to replace human workers, right? Similar to how we agree to use self driving cars as long as it has less incidents rate, instead of absolute safety
    • rzmmm 4 minutes ago
      The bar is higher for AI in most cases.
    • harry8 5 minutes ago
      > we agree to use self driving cars ...

      Not everyone agrees.

  • halayli 23 minutes ago
    Maybe I missed it but I don't see them defining what they mean by ethics. Ethics/morals are subjective and changes dynamically over time. Companies have no business trying to define what is ethical and what isn't due to conflict of interest. The elephant in the room is not being addressed here.
    • afavour 5 minutes ago
      I understand the point you’re making but I think there’s a real danger of that logic enabling the shrugging of shoulders in the face of immoral behavior.

      It’s notable that, no matter exactly where you draw the line on morality, different AI agents perform very differently.

    • voidhorse 22 minutes ago
      Your water supply definitely wants ethical companies.
      • nradov 19 minutes ago
        Ethics are all well and good but I would prefer to have quantified limits for water quality with strict enforcement and heavy penalties for violations.
        • voidhorse 15 minutes ago
          Of course. But while the lawmakers hash out the details it's good to have companies that err on the safe side rather than the "get rich quick" side.

          Formal restrains and regulations are obviously the correct mechanism, but no world is perfect, so whether we like it or not ourselves and the companies we work for are ultimately responsible for the decisions we make and the harms we cause.

          De-emphasizing ethics does little more than give large companies cover to do bad things (often with already great impunity and power) while the law struggles to catch up. I honestly don't see the point in suggesting ethics is somehow not important. It doesn't make any sense to me (more directed at gp than parent here)

    • gmerc 20 minutes ago
      Ah the classic Silicon Valley "as long as someone could disagree, don't bother us with regulation, it's hard".
  • jordanb 53 minutes ago
    AI's main use case continues to be a replacement for management consulting.
    • bofadeez 8 minutes ago
      Ask any SOTA AI this question: "Two fathers and two sons sum to how many people?" and then tell me if you still think they can replace anything at all.
      • harry8 4 minutes ago
        GPT-5 mini:

        Three people — a grandfather, his son, and his grandson. The grandfather and the son are the two fathers; the son and the grandson are the two sons.

  • miohtama 25 minutes ago
    They should conduct the same research on Microsoft Word and Excel to get a baseline how often these applications violate ethical constrains
  • skirmish 1 hour ago
    Nothing new under sun, set unethical KPIs and you will see 30-50% humans do unethical things to achieve them.
    • tbrownaw 1 hour ago
      So can those records be filtered out of the training set?
  • renewiltord 1 hour ago
    Opus 4.6 is a very good model but harness around it is good too. It can talk about sensitive subjects without getting guardrail-whacked.

    This is much more reliable than ChatGPT guardrail which has a random element with same prompt. Perhaps leakage from improperly cleared context from other request in queue or maybe A/B test on guardrail but I have sometimes had it trigger on innocuous request like GDP retrieval and summary with bucketing.

    • tbossanova 1 hour ago
      What kind of value do you get from talking to it about “sensitive” subjects? Speaking as someone who doesn’t use AI, so I don’t really understand what kind of conversation you’re talking about
      • NiloCK 39 minutes ago
        The most boring example is somehow the best example.

        A couple of years back there was a Canadian national u18 girls baseball tournament in my town - a few blocks from my house in fact. My girls and I watched a fair bit of the tournament, and there was a standout dominating pitcher who threw 20% faster than any other pitcher in the tournament. Based on the overall level of competition (women's baseball is pretty strong in Canada) and her outlier status, I assumed she must be throwing pretty close to world-class fastballs.

        Curiosity piqued, I asked some model(s) about world-records for women's fastballs. But they wouldn't talk about it. Or, at least, they wouldn't talk specifics.

        Women's fastballs aren't quite up to speed with top major league pitchers, due to a combination of factors including body mechanics. But rest assured - they can throw plenty fast.

        Etc etc.

        So to answer your question: anything more sensitive than how fast women can throw a baseball.

      • nvch 31 minutes ago
        I recall two recent cases:

        * An attempt to change the master code of a secondhand safe. To get useful information I had to repeatedly convince the model that I own the thing and can open it.

        * Researching mosquito poisons derived from bacteria named Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis. The model repeatedly started answering and refused to continue after printing the word "israelensis".

        • tbrownaw 11 minutes ago
          > israelensis

          Does it also take issue with the town of Scunthorpe?

      • rebeccaskinner 35 minutes ago
        I sometimes talk with ChatGPT in a conversational style when thinking critically about media. In general I find the conversational style a useful format for my own exploration of media, and it can be particularly useful for quickly referencing work by particular directors for example.

        Normally it does fairly well but the guardrails sometimes kick even with fairly popular mainstream media- for example I’ve recently been watching Shameless and a few of the plot lines caused the model to generate output that hit the content moderation layer, even when the discussion was focused on critical analysis.

    • menzoic 55 minutes ago
      I would think it’s due to the non determinism. Leaking context would be an unacceptable flaw since many users rely on the same instance.

      A/B test is plausible but unlikely since that is typically for testing user behavior. For testing model output you can do that with offline evaluations.

  • promptfluid 1 hour ago
    In CMPSBL, the INCLUSIVE module sits outside the agent’s goal loop. It doesn’t optimize for KPIs, task success, or reward—only constraint verification and traceability.

    Agents don’t self judge alignment.

    They emit actions → INCLUSIVE evaluates against fixed policy + context → governance gates execution.

    No incentive pressure, no “grading your own homework.”

    The paper’s failure mode looks less like model weakness and more like architecture leaking incentives into the constraint layer.

  • bofadeez 24 minutes ago
    We're all coming to terms with the fact that LLMs will never do complex tasks
  • dackdel 9 minutes ago
    no shit
  • cjtrowbridge 49 minutes ago
    A KPI is an ethical constraint. Ethical constraints are rules about what to do versus not do. That's what a KPI is. This is why we talk about good versus bad governance. What you measure (KPIs) is what you get. This is an intended feature of KPIs.
    • BOOSTERHIDROGEN 40 minutes ago
      Excellent observations about KPIs. Since it’s intended feature what could be your strategy to truly embedded under the hood where you might think believe and suggest board management, this is indeed the “correct” KPI but you loss because politics.