Black hole singularity is a surface not a point

(arxiv.org)

50 points | by raattgift 1 hour ago

12 comments

  • Certhas 1 hour ago
    As is nicely visualised by it's Penrose Diagram, e.g.

    https://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/penrose_schw.gif

    • shagie 57 minutes ago
      Some PBS Space Time episodes featuring the Penrose Diagram (in order - the first two are from 9 years ago, the last from 6)

      What Happens at the Event Horizon? - https://youtu.be/mht-1c4wc0Q

      Escape The Kugelblitz Challenge - https://youtu.be/v3hd3AI2CAA

      Mapping the Multiverse - https://youtu.be/4v9A9hQUcBQ

    • moralestapia 27 minutes ago
      Sorry man, that's not what this is about.
      • Certhas 14 minutes ago
        It's not? Schwarzschild has a space-like singularity. That's the wiggly horizontal line at the top left of the diagram. If you are in the black hole you can't avoid hitting it. Seems to be exactly what the paper is remarking on.
  • imzadi 9 minutes ago
    Would this apply also to the singularity at the beginning of the universe? I guess I thought that the singularity was where all matter is compressed so much that it occupies a zero dimension point. I'm not sure if that applies equally to black holes and the singularity at the beginning of the universe. I'm kind of dumb on this stuff even though it fascinates me.
  • sigmoid10 1 hour ago
    Should be pointed out that this is a critique of common popsci journalism tropes and not a fancy new research result. Anyone who has taken a graduate level class in General Relativity would have been able to tell you the same.
    • kwoff 53 minutes ago
      Or read Susskind's "The Theoretical Minimum: General Relativity". For a non-spinning blackhole at least, not only is the singularity not a point, it is a surface in time, not space (as the book explains, the space and time coordinates switch places as you cross the event horizon).
    • huflungdung 1 hour ago
      [dead]
  • Groxx 19 minutes ago
    Well... yeah? That's describing the event horizon. It's a term roughly as widely used as "singularity".

    Talking about the inside of a black hole is indeed rather pop-misunderstood though, yes. But it's not like physicists are especially confident about the details either. Theoretical astrophysics changes a lot as time goes on and our instruments improve, and it's a rather hard field to do experiments on to get better data quicker.

  • dekdrop 46 minutes ago
    How does one descr blackhole to a non-physicist without losing much accuracy? I just it of a very-dense-object.
    • ben_w 5 minutes ago
      Normally people think of gravity as pulling on objects. You can instead think of it as pulling on the space those objects are in.

      A black hole happens when there is enough gravity that space gets pulled inwards faster than the speed of light.

      Gravity falls off with distance, and the distance where space is being pulled inwards at exactly the speed of light is called the "event horizon".

      It has this name because speed of light is the speed of causality: events that happen further in, are "over the horizon" for you, they cannot causally influence you.

    • pantulis 16 minutes ago
      It's a region of space from where not even light can scape.

      You can get a region like that by squashing a lot of mass in a small space, like happens when a star collapses under its own gravity. So here the intuition of "high density" makes sense.

      But at the center of galaxies you have the so called "supermassive black holes" which are more or less comparable in size to the solar system and yes, they have a lot of mass but they are not very dense, a pop-sci trope is comparing it's density to cotton candy or even the air we're breathing right now.

      So it's a matter of how you distribute mass/energy in a given diameter, not exactly of density.

    • bell-cot 0 minutes ago
      "A really interesting and cool thing for astronomers to talk about...but you might want to pray that not one of 'em ever comes within a million trillion miles of the Earth."
    • crooked-v 43 minutes ago
      The problem there is that not even the physicists completely agree on the details, because we know black holes definitely exist, but every explanation breaks one rule or another that should apply from different disciplines. It's part of why they get so much ongoing attention.
      • lazide 40 minutes ago
        Black holes are essentially where our knowledge of spacetime breaks, and we can’t even see into it. It’s hard to really concretely know much about it directly.
    • icepush 44 minutes ago
      A one-way door in space.
  • ck2 1 hour ago
    what's really going to blow your mind is

    while you probably assumed or knew spinning black holes move space around them

    spinning black holes also move TIME around them

    * https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ady9068

    so in theory a spinning black hole that's been around for billions of years has a time drag around it in a path that is billions of years old

    (no we can't navigate it because yes that would be time travel to the past and violates causality)

    black holes are just so weird with every new detail even more weird

    oddly more interesting to me to try to grasp neutron stars (densest objects before black holes and are still visible, our entire solar system in a neutron star would be only 10km 6.2miles across)

    • srean 34 minutes ago
      Consider the magnetar.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar

      "A magnetar's 10^10 tesla field, by contrast, has an energy density of 4.0×1025 J/m3, with an E/c2 mass density more than 10,000 times that of lead."

  • dboreham 17 minutes ago
    Isn't that how we're inside one.
  • 542458 53 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • helf 1 hour ago
    [dead]
  • Eridanus2 1 hour ago
    Contains 08 rendered frames of a free falling observer's view while crossing the event horizon. This is not reddit, but plz someone animate it :}
  • jamesforestwest 1 hour ago
    Interesting work. The idea that the singularity is a surface rather than a point was unexpected to me even though it seems to follow logically from the theory of relativity. I wonder how this reconciles with quantum gravity. If the singularity is truly a two-dimensional surface, perhaps it's related to Hawking radiation and the thermodynamics of black holes?