I'm not a business guy, but I think I would be very worried if I created any opening (even on the very long term) for competition to justify itself being built up to meet demand (or national security requirements of other countries) on an industry I mostly control, because I prioritized extremely high prices for a few years that might have the effect of changing the arithmetic for potential competitors that wouldn't have done it before.
It makes me consider whether there would be retaliation in later years against the US intellectual property system in countries other than China. While RAM is a tangible product, the areas it serves aren't really.
Micron has several fabs and fab upgrades coming online or under construction right now. An expansion in Boise and Virginia. Plus a huge megafab project in New York that's going to be the biggest in the world AFAIK.
All the DRAM makers have new fabs or plant expansions underway right now - indicating they believe the demand increase to be sustainable.
The argument I've seen about why someone else doesn't start selling RAM is it takes a year or two to ramp production. But here's a CEO saying he's going to make sure prices stay high enough, long enough that you can spin up a competitor
I think neither CEOs nor boards of the public companies care. They want to maximize their paychecks and bonuses in the short term before they leave to other companies.
Which is what? Because if your solution is "get rid of all C-suite executives", obviously some new person (or some new group) has to be given the final say on decisions in the company and what's to stop them from becoming corrupt or otherwise problematic?
I assume that GP speaks of reducing the salaries for C-suite to the levels they had before Reaganism? I personally suspect that this would be pretty good for companies.
Or perhaps they're thinking of nationalization, which leaves me a bit more skeptical.
Point well taken. Same issue as with shareholders since it's not like companies really belong to a family anymore with a reputation on the line, like their name being in the company name.
Except that in this case it's no longer 'collect money, move on to the next one'. It's 'collect money, become dynastically-rich, retire in 3 quarters from now'. After that, who cares.
This seems like a distinction without a difference. In the context of CEOs sacrificing the greater good for their bonus, [basically] nobody has done that for a $250k bonus. We're often talking 8 figures, tens of millions of dollars.
Is this really a categorically different thing if we're talking about $85 million vs. $12 million?
It's worse, sometimes even governments fail due to overconfidence.
Brazil and the UK (well, technically Japan) caused 2 natural rubber price spikes that first led to the UK smuggling rubber tree seeds to be imported to Malaysia, where the UK took over global natural rubber production, marginalizing Brazil.
Then Japan conquered the Malaysia during WW2, at which point everyone started developing artificial rubber and natural rubber was reduced to a much smaller market.
They are not prioritizing extremely high prices. TSMC has a similar waiting list, so does ever other tool manufacturer. Memory capacity is being increased approximately as fast as it can be.
It has honestly gotten frustrating to even read anything on the internet these days. It’s just conspiracies upon conspiracies all the time, and it’s constantly in your face.
If only they were good conspiracies with some weight to them, but no, they fall apart if you have a rudimentary understanding of the subject.
It's easier to bear that there might be a conspiracy, than that this outcome is the result of chaos and stupidity and greed. Also it makes you think you are smarter than anyone else.
Well it would depend how much higher prices and for how long until competition could arrive. Any business that could sell stuff at 10x prices for 10 years would make enough extra money that it would be worth it even if they knew bankruptcy would happen in year 11.
This is a very difficult supply chain in which to compete, even nation states mostly can’t. The machines that build the chips are really hard to come by and even China is just hoping they can start to make them in 2030 and they likely cannot. Meanwhile demand is accelerating.
History does not drop financial gifts like this in one industry’s lap often. From a sheer numbers standpoint, what they’re doing absolutely is the only logical choice.
Whether they did this or not, I think the exponential demand for memory would still be there. So there would still be conditions that encourage new competing manufacturers.
For now, there are only 3 that matter, but the reason is purely because the US government has sabotaged their competition as soon as it became apparent that the incumbents would lose market share.
Without what the US government did and still does, the prices of memory would have never increased so much and all the world would not have been forced to pay so much for memory.
If I can sell my things at a higher volume for longer vs higher price and less volume now, I'll go with the first, but not shareholders focused on quarterly numbers.
Is your claim that businesses that have to spend billions or tens of billions of dollars and years to bring facilities online to make the products they sell are owned (and influenced) by shareholders focused on quarterly numbers?
This “quarterly, short term” reddit-ism or internet-ism is baffling since the businesses that have earned the most money for shareholders (to the tune of trillions of dollars, eclipsing all other businesses), all have leadership making very expensive, very long term bets.
Or it just be that demand really does seriously exceed supply. It's not fast to bring supply online, it's costly and risky to do so if the demand will not be sustained for a long time. IMO, there's no conspiracy. I have been telling folks for the last 3 years that the price of AI compute is not coming down for a good 5+ years. Possibly 10 years too. Every human in the world will need AI, the same way we all got on the internet and then mobile. However, outside of humans, for every human there's going to be ten or hundreds of agents also all demanding compute.
> because I prioritized extremely high prices for a few years that might have the effect of changing the arithmetic for potential competitors that wouldn't have done it before.
Or maybe they believe the demand is not sustainable, and they don't want to fund $10B ghost fabs.
> extremely high prices for a few years that might have the effect of changing the arithmetic for potential competitors that wouldn't have done it before.
The big problem is, competitors need money. Say a fab costs 10 billion $ a piece, that is a big chunk of investment needed that absolutely needs to be paid back because even a big bank consortium will have a hard time shouldering this kind of single risk.
Now, the fab needs around three years to build... which means if there suddenly comes a huge amount of new supply or alternatively, the AI bubble pops, prices will crash, the companies won't be able to service the loans, and the banks will be sitting on a very expensive piece of real estate and machinery.
Particularly in semiconductors, this "bust and boom" cycle, "pork cycle" or however you want to call it, is very very well known. Banks and other investors have been through that one more often than you can count, that's the reason why there are so few producers left after all.
The only place I think can reasonably pull it off to start a competitor is China because their economic policy is focusing on decades in the future and the CCP is willing (and able) to shoulder the risk - however China can't acquire EUV machinery due to sanctions and will likely take a few years until they can pull it off on their own, by the time TSMC et al will already be at the next generation.
How much of this issue is self-inflicted? Micron is building a massive fab in Syracuse. They've spent like 4 years seeking approval, lobbying politicians, doing BS "environmental impact studies" (which are mostly just rent seeking and political handouts). They finally started building, but if they had just been able to put shovel in the ground we would already have this fab be producing memory.
If only we didn't have 100+ years of factories shitting where we eat we might not have thousands of governments wanting assurances that companies don't harm people in their area.
Silicon Valley is littered with SuperFund sites of bankrupted companies who conveniently couldn't afford to clean up the toxic mess they left behind when they became the vessel full of debt after the corporate shell game moved on.
Do these environmental impact studies effectively stop that? could they effectively stop this issue with a more efficient process?
What happens now is that there are a large amount of studies, that pay consultants and organizations to generate thousands of pages of documentation. They then turn around, have some niche issues that they pay to go away. For example was Micron having to purchase a few acres of land 25 miles away as a park for some owls effectively helping stop superfund sites?
This is basically environmentalism security theater and political grifting.
Yeah, if anything, this makes it more clear to me that all this wonky supply/demand stuff will correct itself sooner rather than later. I've been wanting to upgrade my workstation but the DDR5 RDIMM sticks are unbelievably expensive, last few weeks I've almost pulled the trigger anyway, now I think I'll continue wait at least for the beginning of next year.
CXMT has entered the market, but for now they cannot increase their production fast enough to influence significantly the global prices, due to the US "sanctions", which prevent them to buy modern fabrication equipment.
So they must use older equipment, which has low productivity for state-of-the-art memories. Because of the "sanctions" there are now Chinese companies that have progressed significantly in semiconductor manufacturing equipment, but the effect of this will also take some more time to manifest.
Nonetheless, if the 3 big memory producers will not be able to increase the availability of memory until 2028, then until then CXMT will grab with certainty a major part of the market (they have already grown quickly until 10% of the market, from a negligible percent previously).
The greed and shortsightedness from both the memory makers and their big customers trying to lock out competitors from memory purchases is palpable. The first act of a Shakespearean or Greek Tragedy is where the characters take the actions that lock in the circumstances that precede their downfall. And this sets up everything for the next act where CXMT has everything it needs to establish itself on the market with buyers that would perhaps would not have considered it in other circumstances.
So if capitalism resulted in higher prices that is causing consternation among small-scale buyers, what -ism is responsible for the investment in factories that increased supply of components that resulted in lower priced electronics for the past few decades?
They're 10% of the market now, and they've shown the ability to scale up manufacturing rapidly. They certainly won't singlehandedly meet demand, but they might at least be able to temper the price growth quite a bit.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, is gated by ASML machines. They can't make nearly enough EUV machines to satisfy the demand. ASML has also not scaled their production nearly as much because they're quite far away from the AGI-pilled companies in the supply chain.
Well, CXMT is not gated by ASML machines because they can't buy them. They can raise their capacity because they have access to the domestically produced steppers. They are not as good as the ASML ones, and if the memory prices were not bonkers, they'd never make a profit using them, but as it is the low yields and high die sizes don't matter.
They are. They are using ASML DUV machines for memory. Samsung, SK, and Micron have moved onto EUV machines for memory because they are better. So CXMT not only has to rely on ASML, they have to rely on a worse machine to make modern memory chips.
I mean, yes, but they are also right. They benefit from the market conditions, and contribute to the price increase, but it’s pretty clear there won’t be that much available shovels for a very long time
Of course, because there was a HOA that became financially so big (on paper), that it secured 80% of the shovel supply for the next two years. Now everyone is fighting over the remaining 20%.
Don't be too hard on the CEO. It will be unavoidable and he will be deeply sorry and humbled by their dedication throughout the years. Also, people will receive 2 months of benefits and FREE job search consulting (through an AI agent).
Anthropic is expected to spend 500B of money it doesnt have. Based on these commitments, data-centers have ordered equipment which includes memory. So, a lot of demand for memory is build on a speculative foundation.
> Anthropic is expected to spend 500B of money it doesnt have.
... yet.
That is why the big AI corps all went public this year or are trying to do so. They are valued large enough that they will be included in the popular indices (NASDAQ, S&P 500, ...) from the start, which means an awful lot of money will flow into them each month automatically from all the retirement savings.
And that unfortunately completely prevents the core function that stock markets should offer - that bad actors get punished. Can't get punished when there is so, so much "dumb money" floating around and entering the fray every month.
As an end user it’s difficult to not be bitter about the situation, particularly when you have execs coming out and saying, “yep these prices sure are terrible, better buy now before they get even worse!”
I’ve seen people say, “well that’s just the free market, there’s a customer that’s willing to pay more than you,” but that argument doesn’t hold water when industry incumbents are actively obstructing entrance of new competitors into their primary markets. Micron, etc can’t both refuse to carve off more of their capacity for consumer-destined NAND and also refuse to allow others to fill the vacuum they’ve so conveniently created. Either you’re serving the market or you’re not; you don’t get to have your cake and eat it too in properly functioning capitalism.
One thing is certain: in that world, we would not have to brace for a future where pretty much any form of human labor is at risk of getting replaced by just having the machines oxidize even more carbon and telling those humans to just eat cake if they fail to sell any their skills for bread.
This is why I (actually/literally) just purchased a Commodore 64; I miss the days of crazy optimization and hardware hacking to fit so much into so little :).
That's the one silver lining. I've always kept a lean desktop of mostly terminal based programs, and I've heard one too many times "just buy more RAM" as a defense for resource intensive graphical programs using Electron or modern browsers in general.
I thought that the bulk of memory is already "technically bought" by the AI hyperscalers in the form of the big (not so) "hidden" debt? As in: the supply should already be known.
Micron reportedly sold $100bn worth of DRAM last financial year, and reportedly has $40bn long term commitments. $40bn is more than their entire fiscal 2025 revenue, so it's a lot, but it's clear it'll be a minority of their available supply.
Only last year Microsoft admitted to having GPUs in inventory that they couldn't power, due to a lack of electricity. So much of this production capacity could very well go into making memory chips for GPUs sitting in a warehouse.
The amount of money spend on the AI hype train is crazy. Meanwhile we're wasting fab time making chips that might never be powered on. It's absolutely insane that there are more money to be made on hardware for AI that may never be used, rather than producing a product that consumers and businesses need right now.
If you follow the money though much of this future “demand” is on fulling orders from the AI labs and at the moment the AI labs don’t have the cash to pay that bill. A rather important detail in this whole mix.
So either the labs need to start printing money, now, or there’s going to be a whole bunch of excess chips hitting the market in 2027-28.
Someone in the middle is going to get left taking delivery of all these chips but unable to collect payment for them. And someone else is going to get left holding the bag on data center loans to house those chips. That’s the storm ahead.
One factor constraining supply for RAM in the short-to-medium term is that memory manufacturers is that DDR5 (and assumedly DDR6) capacity is being moved to the much more profitable HBM.
I think supply will be tight until at least the AI market crashes, which could take years or happen within months. Nobody can really predict when this will happen but it's fairly clear (IMHO) that the revenue projections needed to justify the investments by OpenAI, Anthropic and SpaceX simply don't exist.
Without the AI boom, the economy is in recession and has been for awhile. We're in an affordability crisis and the energy crunch is coming.
Honestly, FF became similar worse:
On my 16 GB machine, when surfing some hours FF has allocated around 10-11 GB and for whatever reason it does not free them, unless I exit and restart it
On linux do something like `systemd-run --user --scope -p MemoryHigh=XG -p MemoryMax=X+2G firefox` to constrain it since the firefox people refuse to implement the memory limits logic that say Edge has..
But at the same time, this isn't just a Firefox issue, although they may be worse than most. Its a fundamental tenant of GC languages. You trade CPU (for the garbage collection) for RAM utilization. IIRC This was apparent by the late 70s with Dijkstra, but very clearly indicated in say Hertz where they are explicitly scaling GC overhead vs memory footprint to find that it takes ~5x the ram to approach the efficiency of an explicit allocate/deallocate model. Lower footprints are achievable but the GC overhead goes way up just to reach 2x the ram footprint such that the GC tends to dominate the CPU utilization.
And there are lots of papers like this for long running processes. GC works well if your model is basically allocate as much as you like, exit the process before actually needing to do a proper GC pass. Especially for contended systems where the memory is returned to the OS. This is why say PHP tended not to have this problem, because the memory was largely freed at the end of every request.
Perhaps we should blame this on shitty website design. So many of them load huge assets for no good reason. They get away with it because modern processors are that good, bandwidth is cheap, and until now, RAM has also been cheap.
While I definitely agree that there will be a slow down in purchase decisions for both consumers and businesses I struggle with this idea that there will be “no consumer products” in the market. There will be.
You’re making what seems like a zero sum assumption. I am still using my M1 MacBook for work. I have a first version Mac Studio at home and countless other devices laying around. The world will continue to move forward and yes purchasing will slow down but folks will still be using their existing phones, laptops and other devices.
There’s always going to be consumer products, even if the value proposition is worse.
If there’s a silver lining, I hope it leads to more optimisation, less Electron, and less bloat.
Typed from my 8GB MacBook Neo; which is honestly plenty fast enough. It “feels” like a 16GB windows laptop, even tho of course I know it’s not, but there’s something about optimisation.
Lots of more niche products than Apple’s laptop won’t exist for a while due to the price of hardware. At a smaller scale the inflation hardware companies experience is really, really massive
Man whose compensation package is strongly tied to the economic performance of his company says company's economic performance will be great in 2027 and 2028 (so people should invest now to benefit from that bump)
Make no mistake here: they also plan to retain these high prices. It's like the mafia now. There should be instant-jail time to cure these CEOs of their greed. Like, go to prison for a week, to help refresh your mind and stop thinking in terms of milking the customers dry.
If/when the bubble pops demand will fall so hard they'll have little ability to keep prices too high. Especially with Chinese companies pushing out a lot more product by then.
Micron reported full year revenue of $133bn, up 256%, $100bn of which was DRAM, with non-GAAP earnings last quarter of their financial year of $37.7bn on $54.23bn of revenue. Seems pretty healthy to me. Any reason to think they'll go out of business?
But only in 2028 because all the wafers rotting away in the warehouses are HBM which are too expensive to package or integrate into consumer electronics with tighter margins. Looking forward to having enthousiast-grade GPUs with HBM again though.
It makes me consider whether there would be retaliation in later years against the US intellectual property system in countries other than China. While RAM is a tangible product, the areas it serves aren't really.
All the DRAM makers have new fabs or plant expansions underway right now - indicating they believe the demand increase to be sustainable.
Or perhaps they're thinking of nationalization, which leaves me a bit more skeptical.
You could say that about pretty much any employee - and you'd be completely wrong. What makes you right in the case of CEOs and boards?
Is this really a categorically different thing if we're talking about $85 million vs. $12 million?
Brazil and the UK (well, technically Japan) caused 2 natural rubber price spikes that first led to the UK smuggling rubber tree seeds to be imported to Malaysia, where the UK took over global natural rubber production, marginalizing Brazil.
Then Japan conquered the Malaysia during WW2, at which point everyone started developing artificial rubber and natural rubber was reduced to a much smaller market.
Whenever anyone does, there are dozens of posts acting conspiratorial on HN.
If only they were good conspiracies with some weight to them, but no, they fall apart if you have a rudimentary understanding of the subject.
This is a very difficult supply chain in which to compete, even nation states mostly can’t. The machines that build the chips are really hard to come by and even China is just hoping they can start to make them in 2030 and they likely cannot. Meanwhile demand is accelerating.
History does not drop financial gifts like this in one industry’s lap often. From a sheer numbers standpoint, what they’re doing absolutely is the only logical choice.
Without what the US government did and still does, the prices of memory would have never increased so much and all the world would not have been forced to pay so much for memory.
This “quarterly, short term” reddit-ism or internet-ism is baffling since the businesses that have earned the most money for shareholders (to the tune of trillions of dollars, eclipsing all other businesses), all have leadership making very expensive, very long term bets.
Or maybe they believe the demand is not sustainable, and they don't want to fund $10B ghost fabs.
The big problem is, competitors need money. Say a fab costs 10 billion $ a piece, that is a big chunk of investment needed that absolutely needs to be paid back because even a big bank consortium will have a hard time shouldering this kind of single risk.
Now, the fab needs around three years to build... which means if there suddenly comes a huge amount of new supply or alternatively, the AI bubble pops, prices will crash, the companies won't be able to service the loans, and the banks will be sitting on a very expensive piece of real estate and machinery.
Particularly in semiconductors, this "bust and boom" cycle, "pork cycle" or however you want to call it, is very very well known. Banks and other investors have been through that one more often than you can count, that's the reason why there are so few producers left after all.
The only place I think can reasonably pull it off to start a competitor is China because their economic policy is focusing on decades in the future and the CCP is willing (and able) to shoulder the risk - however China can't acquire EUV machinery due to sanctions and will likely take a few years until they can pull it off on their own, by the time TSMC et al will already be at the next generation.
Silicon Valley is littered with SuperFund sites of bankrupted companies who conveniently couldn't afford to clean up the toxic mess they left behind when they became the vessel full of debt after the corporate shell game moved on.
What happens now is that there are a large amount of studies, that pay consultants and organizations to generate thousands of pages of documentation. They then turn around, have some niche issues that they pay to go away. For example was Micron having to purchase a few acres of land 25 miles away as a park for some owls effectively helping stop superfund sites?
This is basically environmentalism security theater and political grifting.
Effectively: "Now's the time to invest..."
So they must use older equipment, which has low productivity for state-of-the-art memories. Because of the "sanctions" there are now Chinese companies that have progressed significantly in semiconductor manufacturing equipment, but the effect of this will also take some more time to manifest.
Nonetheless, if the 3 big memory producers will not be able to increase the availability of memory until 2028, then until then CXMT will grab with certainty a major part of the market (they have already grown quickly until 10% of the market, from a negligible percent previously).
Was that also capital looking for returns?
... yet.
That is why the big AI corps all went public this year or are trying to do so. They are valued large enough that they will be included in the popular indices (NASDAQ, S&P 500, ...) from the start, which means an awful lot of money will flow into them each month automatically from all the retirement savings.
And that unfortunately completely prevents the core function that stock markets should offer - that bad actors get punished. Can't get punished when there is so, so much "dumb money" floating around and entering the fray every month.
I’ve seen people say, “well that’s just the free market, there’s a customer that’s willing to pay more than you,” but that argument doesn’t hold water when industry incumbents are actively obstructing entrance of new competitors into their primary markets. Micron, etc can’t both refuse to carve off more of their capacity for consumer-destined NAND and also refuse to allow others to fill the vacuum they’ve so conveniently created. Either you’re serving the market or you’re not; you don’t get to have your cake and eat it too in properly functioning capitalism.
Why the need for speculation?
The amount of money spend on the AI hype train is crazy. Meanwhile we're wasting fab time making chips that might never be powered on. It's absolutely insane that there are more money to be made on hardware for AI that may never be used, rather than producing a product that consumers and businesses need right now.
So either the labs need to start printing money, now, or there’s going to be a whole bunch of excess chips hitting the market in 2027-28.
Someone in the middle is going to get left taking delivery of all these chips but unable to collect payment for them. And someone else is going to get left holding the bag on data center loans to house those chips. That’s the storm ahead.
this would be the time to revive and evolve some of that Made In Germany Engineering ...
I think supply will be tight until at least the AI market crashes, which could take years or happen within months. Nobody can really predict when this will happen but it's fairly clear (IMHO) that the revenue projections needed to justify the investments by OpenAI, Anthropic and SpaceX simply don't exist.
Without the AI boom, the economy is in recession and has been for awhile. We're in an affordability crisis and the energy crunch is coming.
The way Chrome feasts on RAM, might need the cloud for that too.
But at the same time, this isn't just a Firefox issue, although they may be worse than most. Its a fundamental tenant of GC languages. You trade CPU (for the garbage collection) for RAM utilization. IIRC This was apparent by the late 70s with Dijkstra, but very clearly indicated in say Hertz where they are explicitly scaling GC overhead vs memory footprint to find that it takes ~5x the ram to approach the efficiency of an explicit allocate/deallocate model. Lower footprints are achievable but the GC overhead goes way up just to reach 2x the ram footprint such that the GC tends to dominate the CPU utilization.
And there are lots of papers like this for long running processes. GC works well if your model is basically allocate as much as you like, exit the process before actually needing to do a proper GC pass. Especially for contended systems where the memory is returned to the OS. This is why say PHP tended not to have this problem, because the memory was largely freed at the end of every request.
It’s like saying that there is no housing crysis in several countries because the market is full of houses, apartments, etc.
If there’s a silver lining, I hope it leads to more optimisation, less Electron, and less bloat.
Typed from my 8GB MacBook Neo; which is honestly plenty fast enough. It “feels” like a 16GB windows laptop, even tho of course I know it’s not, but there’s something about optimisation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Make no mistake here: they also plan to retain these high prices. It's like the mafia now. There should be instant-jail time to cure these CEOs of their greed. Like, go to prison for a week, to help refresh your mind and stop thinking in terms of milking the customers dry.
In the long term, the big comapnies are pushign to have consumers to adopt "terminals" back in old days.
- we use crappy devices, while cloud got beefy machines.